Well, hello everyone, this is Dr. Kim. Welcome back to Rise Up and Lead: Real Lessons, Real Stories, Real Talk. I am your host. I am very excited because I have a guest on that I just opened up an open invitation to, and said, “Who wants to come on the podcast?” at a recent conference I attended. And this beautiful lady said, “Sign me up!” So, I’m going to let her introduce herself, and then we’re going to dive into our conversation. So, would you please introduce yourself to the Rise Up and Lead audience?

Dr. Shanae Herron: Hi, everybody. My name is Dr. Shanae Herron. I am the current Director of Federal Programs for Monroe City School District. I did my dissertation on all the things dealing with minority inequity, and I have enjoyed being in leadership for quite a while. I worked at the Louisiana Department of Education for a couple of years, and then came and started working in the school district, so I’m really excited to be here this morning.

Dr. Kim Richardson: So, you have worked in the schools and then at the state level? That’s not a regular thing. What kind of perspective did that give you, and did you start up and then come down, or how did that happen?

Dr. Shanae Herron: Interestingly enough, I was a substitute for a lot of years. While I was getting my master’s, I was a substitute for the district, and I said, you know what? I want to do higher ed. So once I finished my master’s, I started working at Grambling State University for a couple of years. I also taught at Louisiana Delta Community College, because they gave me my second chance. So I started working at the community college as well, which was a great experience. And then I got a phone call in the summer—I’ve got an offer to work full-time at Grambling as an actual professor, I’ve got an offer to be a full-time professor at Louisiana Delta Community College, and then I get a random phone call to come to a high school. I prayed about it, prayed about it, prayed about it, and God said, “Go to the high school.” I was like, really? I really like higher ed! So, I left Grambling, I left Delta, and I started as an English teacher, uncertified.

Dr. Kim Richardson: Wait a minute!

Dr. Shanae Herron: Right? So, I did English teacher work, and I did the work, and people saw stuff in me I didn’t see in myself, and then they said, “We want you to be a literacy coach.” And mind you, I’m still uncertified.

Dr. Kim Richardson: Okay, wait a minute. What was your master’s in?

Dr. Shanae Herron: English. Before the master’s, I was substitute teaching, and believe it or not, a paralegal. I’ve been all over. I was a paralegal for a little while because I had gotten into law school, and I was like, do I want to go into law school, or do I want to get my master’s in English? I chose the master’s in English. I had an affinity for English, but I passed the LSATs, got the letter to go and start at Southern University Law Center, and I just was like, no, I just want to teach. And I wanted to teach higher ed, but God said, you think that. And so when I got the job to go to a high school, I took it. My kids were the best kids. People had no expectations for them. They were the lowest kids in the school, but I outperformed honors and gifted kids every year on state tests. Every year.

Dr. Kim Richardson: Now, let me say that we might have some non-educator leaders listening. So what is it that you did with those children? What did you do with them that had them so academically successful?

Dr. Shanae Herron: I supported them outside of the classroom. And I don’t think people realize the value of that, especially when you’re dealing with kids in an impoverished situation. I didn’t just make it about the classroom. I built a relationship with them. So, I went to freshman football games where nobody was in attendance. I did it the first time, and I didn’t know if it mattered. But I had a student who came up, and he said, “You were coming to our game.” I said, “I did come.” And one of the other kids in my class said, “She came, she changed her shirt, and she wore this, and did this, and did this.” And I said, okay, so I should keep doing this. So, I went to all sports, though, not just football. I went to basketball games. I went to basketball tryouts. I had kids who would say, “Can you come just… I just need to see your face when I try out.”

I built a cabinet of food, a pantry, in my room. I would go and buy girls’ clothes and boys’ clothes, and in the back of the classroom, you have that long closet? Mine was filled with clothes and snacks. I incorporated Reading Wednesdays. I was like, I don’t care about the scope and sequence. I’ve got kids who read at a first-grade level. I need them to read for fun, and not for punishment. So I went to Five Below and bought these little $5 footstools and beanbags. And every Wednesday, I would come to work and move my desk around, and I would have a little reading space, and they could read whatever they wanted to.

Dr. Kim Richardson: To remind people, this is high school!

Dr. Shanae Herron: Yes, they were reading at a first-grade level, but I knew the test was a 9th-grade level test. So I said, instead of me cramming that and talking with that kind of defeatist attitude, let me get them to love to read. And so I literally would just get books, and I would say, “Hey y’all, let’s do some research.” They didn’t even realize they were researching. They would read an article that they liked, not realizing I’m really teaching them how to be a researcher. They’re reading about topics that they enjoy, because our school had what was called Accelerated Reader, and it was a requirement for every kid. They were reading at a first-grade level, so to get 15 mandatory points, and you’re reading at a first-grade level where all the books are .5 books, in 9 weeks is absurd. I had kids who were going to work after school. They didn’t have time to go home and read; that just wasn’t their home life. So instead, I would give them 25 points on Reading Wednesday. And that would offset whatever grade they would get for AR.

Dr. Kim Richardson: So you had strategies you were just pulling out of your tool belt—academic strategies, certainly supporting their social and emotional wellness. How did you move from that space to having a broader impact on education?

Dr. Shanae Herron: I became a literacy coach at a totally different school. And I loved it. But the way my district was set up, there were some issues that I didn’t like. And I saw where there was room for change. And I said, you know what? I’m just gonna go. I’m gonna put my hat in the ring and see what I get. For those of you who are not in education, by August, you know where you’re working. Well, I didn’t get hired for the Louisiana Department of Education until July 25th.

Dr. Kim Richardson: So you literally didn’t know what you were going to be doing?

Dr. Shanae Herron: I was waiting, but I had kind of been putting it in the air that, hey, I got to the third interview, I haven’t heard anything, but I may be leaving. And it’s interesting because the school got a brand new principal, and he called me and said, “I don’t believe in literacy culture, so I’m gonna make you a 7th grade ELA classroom teacher.” And the same day, my call had come from the LDOE.

Dr. Kim Richardson: So, you step from a building to the state level. How did your leadership begin to change with that type of position?

Dr. Shanae Herron: In the most beautiful way, because at the state level, you’re independent. At the level that I came into, you’re almost your own boss. You do have a supervisor who you kind of do check-ins with, but I ran a whole program called SPED Fellows Academy. So I was literally able to lead and grow leaders throughout the state. Having that opportunity to grow, not just as an individual, but as a leader, and learning how to teach grown people.

Dr. Kim Richardson: How did you learn how to do that, and how were you developing yourself?

Dr. Shanae Herron: I developed by listening more than I spoke. And I’m a talker, so that took a lot. I had to learn to learn people. You have to look at the cues, the verbal and nonverbal cues that people give you, watch their eye contact. How animated are they? Are they smiling? Are they frowning? Are their eyes up? Are their eyes down? Are they engaged with you? I had to learn to take me out of it so that they didn’t feel like they were being led, but that we were working together as a team. My leadership style is very much: it’s my idea, but I’m gonna make this so you feel like you have buy-in. That’s what I learned. Adults work better when they have buy-in, when they can own something. If they own it, they’re gonna do it well.

Dr. Kim Richardson: Was there a situation that maybe didn’t go that well that made you say, “Oh, I got to do this differently?”

Dr. Shanae Herron: So do you want to know the tea? When I came to the department, I was over a program utilizing a vendor. The vendor was not from Louisiana, and was very politically driven. We had 20 other adults in the room in this program. One of them quit after the second session, and the email that he sent basically read the program for filth. He said, “This is the worst thing, it’s a waste of my time, I’m driving to Baton Rouge to come here, and this is not even about Louisiana.” I had to navigate these vendors who I didn’t agree with either, in my new position at the department, while also ensuring that the people who have invested their time into this get something out of it. We ended up having 7 people quit.

Dr. Kim Richardson: Wow! So, how did that fuel you to make some adjustments to the program?

Dr. Shanae Herron: I learned how to lead and let people go, so I had to let the vendor go. And that taught me a lot in leadership, because letting people go is not easy. It is a multi-layered process, and a lot of times when people are hurt, they go to other people and try to backdoor you. You have to learn to stand in integrity. Keep facts. So I kept the data. Every time somebody would exit, I would send them a survey and say, “I need you to be as honest with me as you can about why you’re leaving.” So, when I’m asked by the state superintendent, “Why are you letting this vendor go?” I can say, “Well, I’m happy you asked. Here’s a data point for this. Of the 7 people who left, 6 of them left because they didn’t agree with the views and values of the vendor.” They felt that this was politicized. So I had to learn in leadership that if you can’t document it, leadership goes beyond “I say, you say, we say.” Leadership is proven in all your decisions and data-driven decision-making. I can’t just say I want to do something because I feel or I think. Those are words that I had to learn have no credibility in leadership.

Dr. Kim Richardson: Come on. You know, that’s not something we talk about a lot. You said so many things in that last piece. Just the whole exit process and letting people go—we’re gonna have to talk about that another time, so you’re gonna have to come back on. What a powerful lesson to teach the listeners: that our opinions may or may not need to be in what we’re talking about.

Dr. Shanae Herron: I just feel like in leadership, that’s one of the things that you have to realize. If you start a definitive statement with “I think” or “I feel,” you’re no longer in leadership. I tell people all the time, you have to separate personal from professional. If you’re not able to separate personal from professional, leadership isn’t for you. Because it’s easy to make things personal that are actually professional. You may not always agree with the decision, or it may be a hard decision, but you have to lead with the mindset that this is professional and not personal. It’s not in any way an attack on who you are. Education is a business.

Dr. Kim Richardson: It is. Well, that is chock full. So, are you still in that role?

Dr. Shanae Herron: So, I left the state when we got a new superintendent in our district, and he asked me if I would come back. He was like, “You should have never left, you were great at what you did.” And so, I came back to the district, and now I’m Director of Federal Programs, where I still have to deal with those tough conversations. Leadership has taught me, if you’re gonna fight for it, make sure you’re gonna fight. You can’t be trendy in leadership. If you’re gonna fight for something, it needs to matter, it needs to be sustainable, and it needs to have long-term positive impacts. It doesn’t have to be perfect, but it has to have a reason. If you’re gonna do something in leadership that’s different, you have to be innovative. You have to think outside the box, and you have to really look at where you are and where you want to go. And I always say, what’s your legacy in leadership? Did you leave it better than how you got it?

Dr. Kim Richardson: Well, now. With that, I’m going to ask my signature question for this season. Who enlisted you to lead? Our enlistment term, based on my research, means that someone tapped you, someone saw something in you, spoke a future you didn’t see for yourself. Whether it was voluntary or not, there is someone that enlisted you into your journey of leadership. So, who was that for you?

Dr. Shanae Herron: Whitney Martin, my first high school principal. I went into there to be a teacher, and she said to me, “No, you’ll be a leader one day. I don’t know where, but you’re gonna lead.” She would put me in position so I could experience different things so that I could become a leader. She saw it in me, she sent me to teach a leader my first year. She encouraged me to go to content leader training. She pushed me even when I was like, “No, I’m okay with just being a teacher.” She would never let me settle, and every time I’ve gotten advancement in my career, I call her even now. I say, “Hey, I’m thinking about doing this, what do you think?” Or I got offered this, and she gives me the most sound advice, because she saw something in me, even when I would run away from it. She believed in me, and her belief is why I’m here.

Dr. Kim Richardson: Well, that sounds like an incredible mentor who’s sustained you throughout your career with sound words of wisdom. Dr. Herron has certainly filled my bucket today, and I hope that all of the listeners have written down a thing or two, because I’m still full. Are there any last words to share? If there is a beginning leader who’s just beginning their journey, what would you share with them?

Dr. Shanae Herron: Listen to your gut. Don’t be afraid to listen to that inner voice that you hear that’s guiding you. And don’t ever be so married to one specific role that you can’t see yourself outside of it. Leadership oftentimes means leaving where you’re comfortable to get uncomfortable to grow.

Dr. Kim Richardson: Well, it just amazes me that from one guest to the next, all of the interviews have these themes of content that just continue to make connections. I’m so grateful for you, and listeners, I hope that you have some amazing reflections based on this opportunity to hear from Dr. Herron. Please share your reflections on social media, and let me know if you want to share your own leadership story. Thank you so much for tuning in to Rise Up and Lead: Real Lessons, Real Stories, Real Talk. I’m Dr. Kim, and I always say, until next time, I need you to keep rising. Don’t let the wind come out of your sails. Keep leading, and above all, stay true to who you are becoming. Adios!

Rise Up and Lead

Real Lessons. Real Stories. Real Talk.